Category: News and Views
Hi, guys. Below I have pasted the article that appeared in the New York Times regarding governor David Paterson, and learning Braille. Be interested to see what discussion this sparks. I'll write my own reactions in a second post.
David Paterson Learned without Braille
It is a quandary that parents of disabled children grapple with early and often: What is the right balance between teaching them self-sufficiency and making sure they have the special accommodations they need? As Gov. David A. Paterson has discovered, the way parents answer these questions has a tremendous impact on how disabled children fare in the adult world. Mr. Paterson, in recent interviews, has expressed worry about leaving the governor’s office and learning to live on his own again, after years of relying on others for a variety of tasks, like guiding him up stairs and reading his mail. He never learned to read Braille, as about 50 percent of blind children did at the time he was growing up. Instead, he used what little sight he had in his right eye to read with high-powered glasses, attending regular classes in a public school. That decision was driven by his parents, Basil A. Paterson and Portia Paterson, who were determined to shield him from any stigma and insisted that they would not place young David in special education classes. The teaching of Braille was far more common in the early 1960s, when Mr. Paterson, now 56, was entering elementary school, according to the National Federation for the Blind. Now, with the development of technologies like software that reads material aloud at high speeds, only 10 percent of blind children learn Braille.
“Sometimes the argument is ‘I don’t want my child to be different, so I don’t want them to learn Braille,’ ” said Mark A. Riccobono, executive director of the Jernigan Institute, the research and training division of the national federation. “On one level there is something to that argument. But in the long term it means they have fewer tools in their toolbox.”
There are no easy answers, of course, about what path is the right one for a blind child.
Sheri Wells-Jensen, an associate professor of linguistics at Bowling Green State University who is blind, said, “I hated it when I got pulled out of the mainstream classroom to do something the other kids didn’t have to do." Ms. Wells-Jensen said she eventually came to accept Braille but fully understood why children and their parents would resist, because of the common misperception that blind people have extremely limited capabilities.
“If you buy that cultural stereotype, you’re not going to want to be seen hauling a big old Braille book around,” Ms. Wells-Jensen said. “You aren’t going to want to be pulled out of the classroom to learn Braille.”
Parents like Mr. Paterson’s often go to great lengths to create as normal a life as possible for their blind children. The Patersons searched all around New York City and its suburbs for a school that would not segregate David into special education. When they finally settled on the Hempstead school district on Long Island, their son’s school had to order large-type textbooks to accommodate him. David learned to read by putting on his glasses and pressing his face close to the page so he could make out the words. When he tried to learn cursive writing in the third grade, he would stand next to the blackboard to see.
To this day, he uses a pair of high-magnification glasses to read letters and write personal checks. But he is able to focus on reading and writing for only a few minutes before the strain overwhelms him. During his years as governor, aides have read daily briefings, newspaper articles and personal correspondence into a special voice mail system for him to listen to.
Mr. Paterson, who is proud of the way his parents raised him, said in an interview that his life would be no less difficult had he learned Braille because Braille has its limitations, too.
“I don’t think things would have been easier for me if I had learned Braille because there’s a point that you get to in Braille where they can’t Braille everything for you,” he said. “You can’t Braille the daily newspaper.”
While parents want their children to live without the stigma that special education classes carry, some experts say that this often plays down the child’s limitations.
“Parents see Braille as saying their kid is really blind,” said Diana Brent, who is blind and has studied the developmental differences between blind children who read Braille and those who do not.
“I’ve often thought that partially sighted people might have a harder go of it because they’re trying to live in two worlds,” Ms. Brent said. “I live in a sighted world, but I function as a blind person. I’m not trying to function as if I can see because I never have.”
The governor said he was much better at recognizing his limitations now than when he was younger. “What you learn as you get a little older,” Mr. Paterson said, “is you really aren’t exactly like anyone else.”
Mr. Paterson was just 3 months old when he lost most of his vision, as a result of an infection. He can see nothing out of his left eye and just shapes, shadows and colors out of his right.
The governor’s mother — despite her insistence that he be treated as a regular boy — also helped him recognize that he needed a balance between striving for independence and asking for help when he needed it.
In the book “Sacred Bonds: Black Men and Their Mothers” by Keith Michael Brown, Mr. Paterson tells a story about a conversation he had with his mother after he had broken his wrist jumping out of his brother’s bedroom window to win a $5 bet. His mother cautioned him that he could not take risks like other boys, but she also urged him to keep going to mobility classes to learn how to get around more safely.
He recalled her saying to him: “You felt you had to pretend to your friends that you don’t have a sight problem. I thought that going to this course would be a message to your friends that you need a little help every once and a while."
I do see the point one person in the article raises about partially sighted people being caught between two worlds. For a long time I wouldn't have, but I do have more compassion now for people with partial vision who are caught in the middle. I'm not trying to jump on any bandwagon, but here are my thoughts.
One of my primary questions is this. If Paterson's parents were so worried about him standing out, or getting a stigma attached to him, by carrying around big Braille books, etc, then why not think of the other issues? Did it never occur to them that large print books are pretty big, too? Did it never occur to them that he would not look normal, having to press his face so close to the page, when the other students did not have to do this? Or standing by the board to read the print, when others did not have to? At least when reading Braille, one can still look up at those around them, which in my opinion, looks far more normal than the alternative. The things parents will do, or worse, make their child do or sacrifice in the name of so-called normality are unbelievable to me sometimes. and just because he might have learned Braille does not mean he couldn't have been mainstreamed at the same time. Then again, I guess he grew up in a different era, when mainstreaming was far less common, and that must be taken into account.
It is true that Braille has limitations, but I feel he's using that as an excuse here. With the advancement of technology, such as scanners, OCR software, and refreshable Braille displays, more is available in Braille than ever before, and it is more convenient to use than before. And don't even try to tell me that the man could not have afforded such technology. For exampel , I imagine that much of what Governor Paterson relied on his aides to read could have been scanned on a computer, to be read with a screen reader, or put into a Braille note-taker. Or he could have had a Braille display, such as the Focus, that hooked directly to the computer. Then, no reliance would have been needed, and he would not have to fear leaving the governor's office for the reasons the article lists.
The part about where his mother told him he could not take risks like other boys infuriates me to no end! What child should not take risks? I was allowed to take the same risks as my sighted sisters when I was a child, thank God, and would advocate that any other should do the same. Now, genuine risks to safety should not be taken by any child, regardless of disability or none at all. But to say he shouldn't have as a result of blindness is appalling to me.
Just had to post the article, and voice all that, for whatever it is worth.
I totally get why he would stand out like, standing against the board and stuff like that.
Did he leave office because he couldn't read braille?
I don't believe he has left office yet, as the article is saying he worries about leaving it and not having his aides to rely on. Clearly, he seems to have no problem with the fact that he did not learn braille. However, to my mind, a lot of his worries listed in the article could have been prevented if he had.
Agreed, though he made it this far without it. I feel it is a shame because he was robbed of something.
He's leaving office because he is a terrible governor and has no idea how to run New York.
That said, I wish my parents had made me learn Braille. Even if you have partial sight, having that skill would save you a ton of time in a lot of situations, like reading menus or doors.
I’m reminded of another New York Times article which was publish at this time last year and poses the question of whether “the beauty and shape and structure of language” can be effectively taught without the written word.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/magazine/03Braille-t.html?pagewanted=1
Enjoy,
C.
I don't know, in some ways it was probably a good thing for him. I can't help but wonder had I not been forced to learn braille and have so much out of class time weather or not I'd have been a bit more accepted at school.
Reading large print is just more acceptible. I don't know why, it just is. it's more acceptible to read larger print, because it's still the same, and for the most part you don't need an aid in class with you if you can, especially in primary school.
if you stand out too much it's too hard to fit in. for a lot of kids having a brailler, or laptop in class when everyone else has to write by hand is just too different.
Not being different is unavoidable. Whether you have to use a magnifier, braille display, screen reader, or where corrective eye wear, or anything else, the fact is that you are different. I think we're sending kids the wrong message by saying they're exactly the same as everyone else. Especially when it comes to decisions that will screw up the kid later in life. Facts are facts. more people with disabilities don't have jobs than those without. ANd, by not allowing or encouraging a child to do what they find most appropriate to get whatever they need done, we're doing them a great disservice. Paterson did himself a great disservice by being lazy in office and letting people do everything for him. If he can no longer print as he ages even further, what will he do then? It was originally his parents' fault, but now it's Paterson himself who has the issue. My sympathies are not with him at all.
Amen, Scott. We are different, like it or not. Yes, we should be raised on equal terms with our sighted peers, and I guess that's what gets to me here, Paterson was not. But to try and teach a child with any disability that there's no difference between them and their peers is foolish. On one hand, they didn't want Paterson to be different, on the other they're telling him he cant' take risks like other children can? You can't have your cake and eat it, too. And, I have no sympathy for Paterson at this point, either. He had no control over how he was taught, or in this case not taught, as a child, but he's making his own choices now. For example, he may have taken mobility as a child, but I know from past interviews done with him and stories done on him, that he does not use a cane, and hence, needs his aides to guide him as this article mentions. Again, probably the idea is not to look different, but does any other political official need someone guiding them around? I think not. Amazing how some people can be proud of their lack of independent living and mobility skills.
The bigger problem here is parents only looking at the short term. They don't want their child to look different growing up, so in the process, they sacrifice long-term independence for a short-term goal. Seems that was what was done here.
Hi all, in looking at this story, remember that Governor Paterson, in light of his not using a cane, or not reading Braille, has done absolutely well for himself. Also remember that news articles often exagerate and take things out of context. Again, this article makes the Governor appear to be a helpless blind man who can only do his job because of a team of people who practically do everything for him. The guy has had a successful 30 year career in politics.
Parents will do whatever it takes for their child to be successful, and in Governor Paterson's case, this meant refusing that he receive an education with lower standars. Special education students are often set up for failiure from the start, and taking into consideration
the New York city public school systemm, then and now, he probably is where he is now because of his parents decision that he should be just like everyone else.
Now however, we do have better technology and understanding of how Braille, assistive tech, and using a cane is crucial for many children, and it would be terrible not to teach a child these skills in hopes of him or her not being different. Yes, we are all different, and the truth is that no matter how much a child attempts to fit in, holding a bookk 3 to 6 inches from his or her face, needing help to go places because lack of sight, and so on, will always make a child different. It is best to embrace those differences while at the same time making sure that the child knows how to "fit in" and and to be blunt, to understand social norms.
I like many people was raised in a similar manner to Governor Paterson. Honestly, it would have been very helpful if I had embraced blindness in stead of attempting to be "normal and typical," in spite of it.
At the same time, I might be a very different person if indeed, I had gone to a school for the blind, or had not been in mainstream classes.
Perhaps the challenge is to balance both, such that society lifts the stigma from disability, and we can all understand that everyone is different, that "normal" is a social construct and that we are much better off just being ourselves rather than attempting to fit in.
Post two basically said everything that I had in my mind. I also think that him admitting his fear and how so many did others for him will only serve to strengthen stereotypes. I could only imagine what my mother would say if she read this article, "see, I told you that no one who is totally blind can do things completely on their own... They will always need some kind of assistance." But even if that were true with specific things )writing cheques, coordinating outfits, getting around new places), there's no reason why this man can't use a computer and read his own letters )unless they're handwritten) and other paper work on his own. Mom was nervous about me taking risks, but Joanie was totally go with the flow, do whatever you want, let's climb the tree and swing on the monkey bars. lol Mom almost got sick, years later, when we finally showed her the videos. But in all honesty, she's also glad that Joanie did that for me. Part of it was blindness but part was just that Mom's a girly girl and could never relate to such things as playing in the dirt etc. I was never treated as a blind person. My parents always insisted that people ask me things instead of asking them what I wanted, supported my crazy ideas and never talked down to me because of my blindness. Sure, Mom has her opinions, but she never thought any less of me because I'm blind. Joanie's the big pusher for independence, to a fault many times, but it's also on Mom's mind as well and I know she worries about it often. That's why I have my own place above the house, so that I could live on my own but still close to help should I need it. But no one ever comes up here unless I invite them.
I started learning braille when I was six, but although I could make out a bit, I still didn't fully know how to read until the sixth grade. It was then that Mom pulled out a braille book and asked me to read. I'd memorised a few lines and went through those quickly but then went at a snail's pace when I came across the new material. Mom was so angry at the teachers for not enforcing my reading skills that she personally taught me how to read using her print book and my braille one. Every day, for an entire summer, she would make me read for an hour, saying that if I didn't, I couldn't go in the pool. I loved the water, and by the end of that summer, I loved reading as well. While I'll admit that I don't use braille as much as my computer, I couldn't imagine my life without it. I've even picked it up again thanks to my curiosity about the slate and stylus and I intend on learning Grade III and the Greek braille code as well. I'll definitely give that link on language to my friend Carmen, who's a linguist. I think she'll love it.
So many people worry about acceptance in school. But will it really help you, down the line, if your first or second grade class liked you? I don't see how it could, but I can definitely see how learning braille, mobility and adaptive technology could. Post nine was beautifully written and again takes the words out of my mouth. I too blame him for the way in which he acts. I don't have the best mobility skills, and I do often use sighted guide, but it's always with a cane. As a matter of fact, I've grown so attached to my current cane that I feel strange when going out without it, and even Mom, who always said "just leave it, it's much quicker this way" sees how much I love it and now takes it as a given that it's coming with me. But while I've had some pretty bad instructors in the past, I also take responsibility for the fact that I don't practise my skills from the truly good ones that I've had. I should do more and am willing to admit it.
Hi Tallin32, again, the speculation that the governor's need for many aids was what created his inability to govern, is the typical stereotype which the media uses when portraying blindness. All governors use an army of aids, assistants and so on, it's the same for almost everyone in an elected government office.
Had Governor Paterson entered office on good terms, meaning not because of the former governor's scandal, and the economy nationally and locally going down the drain, he would of been portrayed as the exceptional blind man, who in spite of his unfortunate blindness, has battled his disability with the help of his wonderful saintly staff, and has managed his office. This would be the other stereotype.
Blindness as tragedy is what creates the social stigma associated with blindness, we do not disagree on that point.
Anyone who would of taken office under the terms which Governor Paterson has, had very little chance for success, had they been the most independent blind individual on earth or the most clueless sighted person. However, the focus on his term serving as governor, has been for the most part promoting the helpless blind person stereotype.
Not only that, but within the blind community, he is critiqued for his lack of fitting in to what that community perceives as respectible. He has had a successful career and he has done so with the skills which he has. So, it is now that he wil be leaving office that he has a chance to improve in that area.
If you have been successful for 30 years, why change your strategy unless it was absolutely necessary? He finished his term in office and considering the state of New York government, I doubt anyone could have done any better.
Um, yeah he needs to leave office, and I was wondering how he was running New York...yeah I don't have any respect for him either. And doesn't he care how bad he makes other blind people look, I mean the people who can do things their selves?
Tell me this, if parents are pulling their kids away from braille these days, and they can't use large print, how exactly are they getting a child to use a computer at a early age?
Also, I agree with the other posts about braille. If I hadn't learned it the way I did and had such good bision teachers to walk me through the whole thing...getting embarrossed in kindergarten in front of everybody, I wouldn't be where I am today.
See, one time everybody was learning the alphabet and in braille the i's and the e's confused me, so if I remember correctly I said my i was a e, and the teacher almost got a ruler out and was ready to whack me with it if I didn't correct myself. So another thing you can say, I have never been treated different from other kids well, until, middle school when graphics started getting harder and stuff like that.
I would actually argue that he's not really independent at all. all his parents did was simply aid him in being able to be more dependent on the people around him.
if he doesn't use a cane, then how can he go for a simple walk on his own? how can he enjoy privacy if he can't use a computer, write his own letters, read his own personal mail, and do all those things that most of us blind people enjoy?
At the same time however I kinda think that if people have sight then they should use it for as long as they can over something like braille, especially in the classroom. it really does make a difference if your class likes you or not, and the less you're taken out of class, and the less you have an aid sitting with you the better.
I absolutely hated being taken out of normal lessons to learn braille and stuff. and to be honest, I think when I got my first cane and was told I had to bring it to school and so on, I actually lost some of my independence rather than gained it. I certainly was seen as much more different after that, and now I don't feel confident without it, and I remember as a child I was always fine walking on my own without a cane.
I don't like how partially sighted people are sometimes thrown into the same category as the totally blind, and are expected to have the same limitations placed upon them. I didn't need extra 'looking after' on school excursions and so on, but I was expected to put up with it because I was legally blind, in spite of the fact that I had a large amount of vision and had by that point travelled overseas on my own at least once.
so yes, I can understand why some partially sighted people want different treatment and want to use their sight as much as possible.
I agree with you, Tallin. I know that most media articles do portray the blind person as helpless, even when the blind person has tried to show that they're not. But in this case, a lot of what proves Paterson is basically helpless is said by his own admission. This is one of those rare times that the portrayal doesn't seem to be the fault of the reporter, but the blind person himself.
And, the thing you are talking about where the partially sighted get more priveleges and so on is what I've heard called, the hierarchy of vision. It is still practiced all too commonly in schools for the blind, as well as programs for the blind of any sort.
Loui, I half agree with you, half don't. The part where I don't is this. Your message seems to have a contradiction. You made the point that, if Paterson doesn't use a cane, how can he go for simple walks, etc? And yet, you said that when you were force to use your cane at school, and so on, you lost independence and confidence, because before you had no problem walking around without it. So I am confused here. Are you for, or against, a partially sighted person
using a cane? On one hand you seem to say it could give more independence, on the other that it takes it away.
However, you are right that too often the people with partial sight do get lumped in with totally blind folks, and that their particular needs are not considered. I am still often guilty of that, but have come to recognize at least some of the fault in it over the last two years or so.
I personally think that it actually has a lot to do with the amount of vision you have.
Now, if he hasn't got enough vision to be able to see obstructions, stairs, and anything else that can hinder his progress and/or be a danger to him, then he should be using a cane, and so should anyone else who wants to be independent.
but I actually have enough vision to see those things and I know from the times I have left my cane in my husbands car that I can actually get along fine without it if I put my mind to it. but when I was 10 years old the cane was simply thrust upon me with no regard for the fact that up till that point, I had never used one, not used sighted guide with people once I was older, and could actually see where I was going!
I don't even use the cane properly when I do have it with me, I just place it in front of me because I can't stand the insessent tap tap tap.
but now, since I was forced to use it at school, I don't actually feel all that confident without it, and it's stupid, because I should be fine.
you know I may not agree with all he does or doesn't do. but that's none of my business. what works for him, by the way he must have been doing something right. he had a good jjob fora long time now. which is a lot more than most of you that are judging him can say. harsh I know, but true! and as you see on the boards, I tell it how I see it! You know most of you that are bitching about this, are the same ones that are bitching bout the sighted judging us. As has been said, not all blind people deal the same. Obviously what he's been doing has gotten him pretty far. Whether you like it or not!
He made something of himself, maybe not in the way you would have liked him too. but who are you to say how he should or shouldn't do things?
Maybe he didn't do such a great job, I HAVE no idea. but he tried and I think that should count for something!
Not all blind people are alike, isn't that what you've been wanting the sighted to see???? So then why should you judge him because he don't do things like you do? bit hypocritical?????
We all deal with our blindness in different way. hekc some don't even deal. They sit around and mope. . so I give this dude credit for getting out there and doing what he does, even if it's not the way you or I would have done it!
My opinion anyway.
Then he shouldn't be complaining now that his wonderful plan is backfiring. If he was that successful, he wouldn't have made those comments or be afraid of being thrust into a world of independence.
come on now. we have all gotten so used to something and then been scared to start all over.
and no matter what anyone says he must have been somewhat successful to make it this far! Like I said I'm not saying I agree with everything he has said or done. I just don't think it's fare to be so judgmental because he handles things different than you or I!
I'm not saying that he hasn't been successful or anything like that. I would however question how much success is due to the fact that he has so many people doing things for him.
It's sort of like people who don't vote and then complain about whoever gets elected when really they have no right to when they themselves decided to stay totally silent on the matter.
Yes his parents made certain decisions that effected him, but once he was older he could have learnt to read braille, or even now he could embark on learning some form of technology, in order to help the things that he's afraid of be less troubling to him and to give himself some degree of independence. However the tone of the article suggests to me that he has little intention of doing that, and is complaining because he's going to lose all these wonderful people who do it all for him.
He could easily learn how to use a computer, people who are in their 70's and 80's are doing that these days so I don't see why he's any different from them, and even if it was too hard for him, he should at least have a go if he's so worried about losing all the access he has now.
Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. *smile*
Again, this is an article which might not exactly be presenting the Governor accurately. He has had a 30-year long career in politics and it is ridiculous to think that his success has only come about because of his many assistants.
On another note, I find that many partially sighted indindividuals are very reluctant to identify with blindness because of the stereotypes which society places on the blind. in the above posts, SwissGriff writes that the partially sighted should not be lummped in with the blind, and expected to have the same limitations as the blind. I ask, what are those limitations? Again, this is an example of society placing these stereotypes within us such that we begin to discriminate amongst ourselves. I have met more capeable blind individuals than partially sighted ones, and that is mostly because partially sighted people, generally focus all of their efforts on using that bit of vision, and not on alternative techniques.
SwissGriff also writes "but I actually have enough vision to see those things and I know from the times I have left my cane in my husbands car that I can actually get along fine without it if I put my mind to it. " for the most part, sighted people don't need to "put their mind to it," in order to get along, and neither do visually impaired or partially sighted people or blind people who have aquired good skills and alternative techniques. I'm not attempting to pick on anyone in particular, but I felt that these posts were very hypocritical, and just a bit confused.
As stated above, everyone is different, and yes, we must keep ourselves up to date with society, in terms of daily living, tech, travel, and so on, and we should strive to be the best people possible, but even so, those differences will show themselves and we should not be such harsh judges of others.
unless i read it wrong. it doesn't say he didn't know how to use technology. It says he's nervous to get into the real world again, because he's used to having assistance in reading mail and navagating stairs!. I know how to use my technology, and I still have people read me some of my mail. There are just some things that the scanning technology don't read very well! I don't know why I'm telling you this, cause it don't matterr, as I said different people deal with things in different ways. Who are we to judge him? He's made it this far in life and seems to be doing well. so obviously it worked this long for him. The media likes to dramatize what people say too! So hard telling if this is exactly what he said. again, it don't matter. Maybe he feels safer having assistance on stairs. maybe he's nervous around them. I don't like excaladers. they freak me out. I won't use one by myself. gasps. yes I would only use them sighted guide. I would much rather find my way to an elevator than take an excalator that is right by me! My husband don't mind them at all. he has tried to explain easy ways to do it and it still freaks me out. So what I'm getting at is each person deals with things in different ways. That don't make any of us better than the other!
Several things here:
First, there is an enormous difference between tapes and speech technology.
Admittedly, speech isn't my favorite medium but it is faster for many things, and actually the iOS speech / sounds are rather a joy to use.
But the real clincher is, tapes and talking books, I cannot see how something is spelled. Speech, like the iPhone, I can. I can even feel around on the screen and see the context of how things are laid out. It's just a medium like anything else. Reminds me of when they decide I shouldn't learn Optacon because it would make me 'forget' Braille.
I come on here and see complaints about how terribly blind people spell, then I go onto Facebook and see equal or greater numbers of misspellings and gramatical errors. You think the their and there usage is limited to the blind? Think again. Or no caps? Punctuation dropped like bird turds on your picnic table? Again, I saw it all before, but had to come on this site to learn it was supposedly the blind. Sure, I think we ought to elevate Braille usage in schools and stuff. That's done, like anything else, by practical solutions and real effort producing real results.
It's fun, though, to fall in love with the idea of something, to the gross exclusion of anything practical.
I would love rooms full of Braille books, and to do everything in Braille. However, there are some things, like it or not, I've had to learn to do with speech as it's just that much faster.
Tapes are painful, but speech is tolerable. I'd say the speech on the iPhone has turned out a joy to use.
Now on the other topic: Anyone in a higher position has people do things for them. You have to have been living under a rock not to know this. I've installed systems for people who could easily have done it themselves, but their attentions were demanded in other areas, aka meetings and the like.
When I traveled on business, I was paid to provide engineering solutions, not poop around and play independent sixteen-year-old, So, within reason, if the hotel consierge or whoever could do something for me, and I could use my customer's time getting them a solution, I opted for the latter. After all, the customer was paying for me to actualy build something, aka do something useful, rather than piddle around with some useless ideals.
He is governor of the entire state, not just the blind of that state, and frankly owes everything to the state. That is his duty. He swore no oath of office to the blind.
George Bushes Sr. and Jr. have both expostulated on how difficult it was giving up the White House, having coffee made for them every morning, use of Air Force 1.
If they were blind and said that, look what we'd have, based on what's here.
There is a double standard, yes, and it's done by the alleged 'community' of blind and agency-for-the-blind people.
I, for one, am not buying it. From either group, it's criticize on all counts, no matter who the individual is. A blind person pokes their head out into the public eye for two minutes or les, and we've got us some belly-aching going on.
there are a lot of limitations placed on the blind, especially those who might go to a mainstreem school.
for example, when I went on excursions with my school, I had to go sighted guide with someone at all times. I very very rarely use sighed guide, so this is something I am highly annoyed about when I am forced to do it, all because some people doing risk assessments can't tell the difference between someone who is partially sighted, and highly independent, between someone who is fully blind with little independence.
blind people are limited in all kinds of ways where insurance is involved, because there is no differenciation between partially sighted people who are legally blind and legally blind people with no sight whatsoever.
and it just annoys me no end when people point out things to me because they think i'll run into them, to have to tell them that I can actually see them.
I keep seeing the phrase, "limitations placed on blind people". The only limitation that is placed on you is one that you accept. If you don't do anything to prove that a limitation is not needed, then it is placed on you. There are times when I will allow a limitation to be placed on me because it actually makes things easier. For instance, in the dining hall in my college, I have someone help me; I could do it myself but it would take a long time and get in the way. However, the college offered to have a student walk me to each of my classes, which I refused to allow, because it wasn't necessary.
It annoys me to know end when people say that something was thrust upon them when they did nothing to stop it. If something does not fit with your needs or desires, do something about it. And when I say do something about it, I don't mean to sit here and write a board post about it. Go to the person in charge of what ever it is and tell them that you don't need whatever it is, and have it removed. Its not that difficult if you just become more assertive.
there's only so far that that can go though, ya know?
yes, it can stop people being overly helpful, but it can't take away a lot of the limitations that are not placed upon you by a school, but by an insurance company.
Hey waitasec! Insurance company? Where are there limitations placed on the blind by insurance companies? I have yet to see this ...
Also: Quoting an earlier post:
I disagree with Loui; the only limitations are those which we place on ourselves.
as Cody said, though, there's a difference between making excuses for why you don't wanna do something, and admitting you've allowed limitations to be placed on you.
OK, so there are some limitations on blind folks. We can't drive, and that one is not going to change any time soon. That's a limitation. But, the ones of the kind being discussed on this board seem to be the kind that, as Cody says, we have control over.
And, how did insurance get into this discussion? Did I miss something here?
Also, I don't believe more limitations are placed on a blind child who is mainstreamed than one who is in a Braille school. Personally, I think it's quite the opposite. When I was mainstreamed, I was not allowed to go sighted guide with anyone, but made to use my cane. It used to piss me off, but now I'm grateful it was done that way. When I went through programs at the Braille school, I was always forced to walk sighted guide with a student who had partial vision. So who was placing the limitations here?
my point about putting my mind to it was simply to do with the fact that if I want to get around without a cane, it's hard for me to have as much confidence to walk about independently than with one, and this isn't because I use my cane in any conventional way at all, but because using a cane was forced upon me by my school at about age 10, even though I had enough sight not to need one and I never used sighted guide. but my parents forced me to take the cane everywhere on the advice of the blind society, and my school did the same, so I feel as though while yes, I can use a cane even though I don't really need one, I have lost the ability to walk around anywhere I like without one by using the vision I have.
My point about insurance companies is simply this.
all schools, at least in australia have insurance, and part of going on school excursions is that teachers must fill out risk assessments for the company. for disabled students to be able to attend such excursions and for them to be covered by the insurance, they must be given extra assistance to make sure they have no accidents, hense, why I had to use sighted guide all the time. now in this sense, we have limitations on us. I was perfectly capable of geting about on my own, but wasn't allowed to do so.
As for the hierarchy of vision, yes, in some cases I do believe it has a place, especially where insurance companies are concerned. as someone who has travelled to other countries totally indeependently, as someone who can navigate crowded areas unaided on a day to day basis and as someone who uses her vision more than any other sense, it annoys me that there is no differenciation between partially sighted people and totally blind people when I have to apply for travel insurance and end up having to pay more than the average sighted person. I can understand why insurance companies must take peoples disabilities into account. it's what they do, and it's part of risk assessment so they don't have to pay out more money than they should have to, but they do not take into account the levil of vision that someone has and they should.
We are different. Deal with it. Everyone will stand out sooner or later and if braille makes you look odd, well, to put it bluntly, tough tits.
right on, margorp. thank you.
Braille is always going to be important. I've been in both worlds so to say. I'm glad I learned braille because it has helped me. For those that don't their being deprived of another tool as the NFB have said. I think dispite all of the technology coming out today braille will always have its place whether it's for labeling, or reading signs etc.
@Swiss Griff: Ah—I think I see the problem here. I'm coming at this from the perspective that visual accuity shouldn't affect one's insurance premiums at all. If I travel to Germany from the United States, I'm at no point asked about my visual impairment, and at no point am I charged a higher premium.
Per your point regarding the hierarchy of vision: I still don't quite understand how it can be taken at face value that someone with some vision needs less assistance than someone blind. A blind person with a map of Chicago is more likely to be able to find, say, the Amtrak station than someone sighted with no map. A blind person that can speak German is, peradventure, in a better position to manage in Germany than a sighted person that can't, all other things being equal.<sup>*</sup> I'm not entirely sure where one's visual accuity or lack of same should come into play when calculating risk assessments, insurance premiums, or ... wwell, much, really, with the possible exception of choosing up sides for baseball. Frankly, I don't see how I'd be more of a risk when travelling, or require more assistance, than someone with partial vision, solely on the basis of a difference in visual accuity. Can you show examples where lack of eyesight can in no way be mitigated through other means, that would justify charging blind people a higher premium on travel insurance?
<sup>*</sup> This does not take into account specific individuals' backgrounds or personal experience. A blind person will, for example, have heaps of trouble in the kitchen if they've been told all their life that the kitchen is a big, scary place if you can't see. I daresay, though, that the lack of vision on its face is not nearly the problem that it's made out to be, and if this is used in Australia's calculations of travel insurance, I'd say this is a bug with Australia.
Not all limitations are self-imposed. Much as I might love to, I can neither fly nor breathe underwater. I like most of you have flown in aircraft, though I've never been diving.
But honestly: My wife being a tall person suffers certain limitations I don't, and hence even though she can see, I'm more likely to crawl into a small space and look at / fix something in there. That limitation of hers is not self-imposed, no matter what some reader's digest-style article may say.
No, most limitations we have are probably simple biology. We either work around the biology, or change plans and do something else. Just because it may be technically possible for me to do something doesn't mean that I necessarily should.
One profound limitation I don't like, but have to deal with, since my mid-thirties: the days of the frequent all-nighters are long gone. Project needed finishing? No problem. Pull an all-nighter, the employer may be impressed. In college? Work all day / go to school all day, party at night, do just fine the next day.
You could probably come up with a reader's-digest-style inspiration story about a guy who's sixty still able to burn it at both ends, and maybe this guy doesn't even work out on a regular basis like I do. If you're as ridiculous as some people on here apparently are, you could even fault me for not 'measuring up'. Good luck with that, enjoy it: I'll be taking a pass on that.
As to the blind vs. partial vision thing: I don't know if there's a direct hierarchy, but I will say if you find yourself in particular suited for an occasion, I think it's most responsible to step up. I was with some people once at a party, one of them I knew had low vision. To me, and everyone else, she was like anyone with full sight: could read the cocktail menus for herself, recognize faces, etc.
However, when we left it was late and dark. Her vision problem apparently meant she couldn't get around in the night. I know, there are streetlights and everything, but in her particular case, it messed up her vision. I have none, have never had any, so clearly between the two of us, I had the advantage. So, I just told her grab a meathook and don't let go. She was skittish but fine. The alcohol probably helped her freak out less, at least that's my guess.
So, to me it's not really vision or no vision, or how much, it's just the situation, what abilities you and others have, and .... just stay at the top of your game as best you can.